Playing to Lose: AI and "Civilization" (Soren Johnson)
Google TechTalks2 HN recommenders · recommended in 3 months, 2011-2026
67K views · 16 years ago · talk · evergreen
Soren Johnson, a lead designer and AI programmer on Civilization games, discusses game AI design, including whether AI should cheat, behave like a human or be fun rather than strong. He uses the Civilization series as a case study.
HN commenters recommend it as the key talk on why game AI is built to be fun rather than to win.
8:28The Day FPS Games Died
Basically Homeless
2M views • 5 years ago
1:44:09Jonathan Blow: Video Games and the Human Condition
rubbermuck
158K views • 15 years ago
1:02:42Preventing the Collapse of Civilization / Jonathan Blow (Thekla, Inc)
DevGAMM
315K views • 7 years ago
1:17:21Sid Meier's Psychology of Game Design
GDC Festival of Gaming
137K views • 10 years ago
1:09:54Gambling and the desire machine | Pay to Win
Jimmy McGee
222K views • 4 years ago
49:57Meaningful Play: Getting Gamification Right
Google TechTalks
118K views • 15 years ago
16:18Computer program that learns to play classic NES games
suckerpinch
2.2M views • 13 years ago
25:09The Next Major RTS Will Fail. This Is Why.
GiantGrantGames
985K views • 4 years ago
53:58GDC 2010: Sid Meier Keynote - "Everything You Know is Wrong"
GameSpot
101K views • 16 years ago
6:02OpenAI Plays Hide and Seek…and Breaks The Game! 🤖
Two Minute Papers
11M views • 7 years ago
1:55:24Ideas about a new programming language for games.
Jonathan Blow
530K views • 12 years ago
20:41Training an unbeatable AI in Trackmania
Yosh
17.7M views • 3 years ago
58:24#Gamelab2018 - Jon Blow's Design decisions on creating Jai a new language for game programmers
Gamelab Conference
210K views • 8 years ago
48:27Jonathan Blow: Game design: the medium is the message
CreativeMornings HQ
119K views • 13 years ago
11:17[Highlight] StarCraft Remastered Rant
Day9TV
453K views • 9 years ago
1:05:25Robocalypse Now: Using Deep Learning to Combat Cheating in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
GDC Festival of Gaming
35K views • 6 years ago
13:04VACNET Anti-cheat
3kliksphilip
574K views • 8 years ago
1:02:15Classic Game Postmortem: Sid Meier's Civilization
GDC Festival of Gaming
225K views • 9 years ago
39:47How lucky is too lucky?: The Minecraft Speedrunning Dream Controversy Explained
Stand-up Maths
8.4M views • 5 years ago
1:04:41Jonathan Blow - Preventing the Collapse of Civilization (English only)
bus
268K views • 7 years ago
8 comments from Hacker News
I would say diplomacy is the most misunderstood feature of the series. Players constantly say they want a stronger AI that's smarter at diplomacy. But whenever they have built an AI like that, their play testers complained that it doesn't behave like a real world leader (too ruthless). This experience led Soren Johnson (co-designer of Civ III and lead designer of Civ IV) to the realization that Civ AIs are supposed to "play to lose" [1]. [1] ▶ this video
That sort of game AI isn't designed to be strong. It's designed to be fun. See e.g. this talk titled "playing to lose" ▶ this video
"Playing to Lose" : ▶ this video Personal preferences aside, they specifically talk about how to make the game "fun". For example, they try to account for things like real-world leader's personalities. "Gandhi" shouldn't just attack his neighbors unprovoked, but maybe "Caesar" should. And why do the AIs even bother to ally/trade/help the player at all, since the player is the only enemy that really matters anyway? Because the player is also the only person that matters in terms of having fun, and making the game too hard isn't any fun.
Calling it "lazy game design" is not only offensive to me as a game designer, but it's plain wrong. Here's a talk about AI in Civ from Soren Johnson, Lead Designer/AI Programmer on multiple Civ games: ▶ this video
Soren Johnson gave a similar talk on AI Playing to Lose: AI and "Civilization"[0]. Here he split AI into two groups, Good AI(Chess) and Fun AI(Tower Defense), While the good AI plays the same game as you with the same rules and tries to beat you,Fun AI is asymmetrical, playing a different game whose objective is not to beat you, but you might still be defeated. [0] ▶ this video
You might enjoy a talk by the designer of much Civilization AI: ▶ this video Its a very good talk, but applied video game AI as a field is kind of a let down.
You may well enjoy this lecture at google from one of the civ5 devs talking about the AI design, and game AI design in general. ▶ this video
Continuing my theme of posting relevant google tech talks, here is Soren Johnson, the lead designer and AI programmer on Sid Meier's Civilisation, discussing this very subject with specific reference to the evolution of civ's AI over the years. Extremely enlightening, whether you are a gamer or not. ▶ this video "Artificial intelligence is crucial to any strategy game, providing a compelling opponent for solo play. While many of the challenges of AI development are technical, significant design challenges exist as well. Can the AI behave like a human? Should it? Should the game design be adjusted to accommodate the limitations of the AI? How do we make the AI fun? Should the AI cheat? If so, how much? Do we even want the AI to win? This session suggests some possible answers to these questions using the "Civilization" series as a case study. Ultimately, developers must choose between a "good" AI and a "fun" one, with an understanding of the trade-offs inherent when deciding between the two."